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I didn't know where else to ask it. (Channel trucks vs. Longboard)

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:20 pm
by david0241
As someone who is active in not only mountainboarding, but plain longboarding as well I have questioned the intertwining of some of the technology offered by both sides. 2 days ago, I was in a gnarly longboard crash- It involved me bombing a hill and some silver caravan started coming up driving smack dab in the middle of the road careless that I was coming down. I had to steer hard left into a cul-de-sac to avoid this guy and I was so hopeful of making it, but then came the rising curb. I knew it was going to be trouble as I was speeding diagonally into this thing at 30 mph. I hit it, my board did several flips... and well so did I. I now have 3 stitches in my elbow, my entire body is covered in road rash, and my wrist has some sort of damage that the doctor could not properly identify via the x-rays (can't twist it.) After all this, I can't help but thinking about my beautiful matrix pro spring trucks. I just know if my longboard had a pair of spring channel trucks, the whole catastrophe would have been avoided and I would have kept speeding away. So now I'm thinking of possibly throwing some channel trucks on my longboard as well as probably getting some p-urethane wheels with more grip to them. Can anyone advise me for; or against this? Also what sort of things should I take into consideration?

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:40 pm
by DrSkaCtopus
So your wheels didn't grip and you slid out instead of turned? That's more to do with the duro of your wheel, as well as the shape. If you were using a harder duro, round lipped wheel you would slide easier, while soft, hard lipped wheels with a wide contact patch tend to grip. If you're talking about truck stability you would have to look at the angle of your trucks as well as your bushing setup. MBS channel trucks are 0 degree trucks that get their angle from being mounted on the board's nose and tail. If you just threw some channel trucks on you would have all lean and no turn. Seismic trucks are somewhat similar to channel trucks in that they use spring resistance instead of bushing resistance. Original is another company that does that, as well, but they use a single spring system.

Edit: And if you're implying that spring trucks have suspension, they don't! The springs and egg shocks merely provide resistance as the kingpin is fixed in place.

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:58 pm
by Jimmy Chaos
I'm actually in the process of making my own wheels because I fell in love with the ones I drilled out for my conflict even though they're not perfectly done.

Image

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:07 pm
by Mikael
I'm not sure Matrix trucks are the way to go for longboarding. Set loose they wobble a lot, and set stiff, they require a lot of effort to turn. There isn't much a of middle ground (IMHO).
Maybe some new eggs would help? Longer but softer than the average egg.

Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:49 pm
by david0241
@DrSkaCtopus: No it's not really a question of the wheels, it's more of way the matrix trucks provide dampening to a rising curb (or any sort of uneven landscapes, sort of a requirement for the whole mountainboarding thing I would imagine.) It was not the turning that was of issue, I actually came through with the turn, the problem was that I was almost done with my turn when I came heading into a rising curb(like the one pictured below but without the car ramp [my mountainboard could take those things on at ~30mph like it weren't even there]) at a slightly diagonal angle and the force made the whole thing flip. I feel they absorb the sudden height difference differently, my theory being that the channel trucks take the impact smoothly and evenly whilst the regular trucks take all the impact suddenly and the impact works its way to the to the other side sort of jolting it and throwing it causing the board to flip and me to go flying. That's the best way I can describe it anyhow. And again, that's my theory- and I could be totally wrong but that what my experience has led me to believe.

@Jimmy Chaos: Out of curiousity, why not just switch bearings? I have yet to try any of this stuff out yet, but I would think that the axle size doesn't differ... or does it? Suppose it would make sense being that they are suppsoe to be more durable. Anyhow, I dig what you have going there, I'm very much considering buying an old "MBS cricket" for $40 and throwing the trucks on a trampa (or maybe now? might just give it a paint job if I don't plan to jump it) and putting urethane wheels on it. (Picture of the truck below, also have a thread about this board in and of itself going.)

@Mikael: I've never really experienced speed wobble on my Pro 100 on street- but I suppose the pneumatic tyres probably help a lot. Perhaps instead of eggs you throw some yellow or green trampa dampa's in? Or maybe green front, yellow back- vice versa?

Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:17 pm
by DrSkaCtopus
I'd say it was more a matter of the width of the trucks, then. Some mountainboards use TKP (traditional kingpin) style trucks (like on a streetboard or longboard) while others use something akin to an RKP (reverse kingpin, like MBS Vector trucks, which are a zero degree RKP) only wider to accommodate the larger mountainboard wheels and to distribute your weight over a larger surface area to, as you said, "dampen" the forces of the rising curb (although I'd say it's more the wider surface area your weight is distributed over). You could look around for some wider longboard trucks, but not many companies go into or beyond the 200mm range.

Edit: And remember, the springs don't act as a suspension system, only a means of resistance for turning. Prevents the turning from being sloppy and loose as well as providing a nice and snappy return to center.

Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 1:49 am
by markbrosnan78
Might be easier to learn how to early grab depending on what you were riding.

Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 6:10 pm
by sk8norcal
1) were u wearing slider gloves?
2) do u know how to slide?
3) were u riding a stiff deck?

spring trucks are not for going fast

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:38 pm
by Jimmy Chaos
sk8norcal wrote:spring trucks are not for going fast



I know the new speed record for a longboard is like 82mph which broke the old record of 71 something, but those are the records not what typical people ride.
There are mountainboarders that have hit 60+ mph , and quite a few more that have ridden comfortably in the 50's including me.

Everything is relative so whats your definition of fast?

Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:22 am
by markbrosnan78
20-30 mph is about the what I ride on a longboard and 20 in the mountain board. I would go faster but there isn't enough gradient around here.

In reality that's probably about the most people ride as a general figure. Sure people double it but how often do they do that?

Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:50 am
by leapb4ulook
markbrosnan78 wrote:20 in the mountain board


Really? How are you measuring your speed?

Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:48 am
by markbrosnan78
Ski tracks and map my ride so I don't expect it to be too accurate and that was on a road with highly inflated tyres. Perhaps I should have said that was a maximum? No idea what it is on grass because I won't carry the phone with me because I fall over all the time.

I guess mountain board is probably only around half that usually.

Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:50 am
by markbrosnan78
Should get a proper GPS one day and try it.

Last road run:
[ATTACH]1329[/ATTACH]

And I just found the snow runs I did. I wish that field was rideable every day.
[ATTACH]1330[/ATTACH]

Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 4:33 am
by sk8norcal
Jimmy Chaos wrote:I know the new speed record for a longboard is like 82mph which broke the old record of 71 something, but those are the records not what typical people ride.
There are mountainboarders that have hit 60+ mph , and quite a few more that have ridden comfortably in the 50's including me.

Everything is relative so whats your definition of fast?


35 and up is all fast to me.

60+ mph, that's impressive, video?
I like to see some videos of mtboarders going fast,
and without carving side to side, straight lining it.
and without cranking down the springs so u could bearly turn.

For the OP's situation. I could see the mtboard is better at going up that "curb", not because the spring truck is better, but that the air tires and the deck dampen flex helps absorb the shock.

As far as using the matrix trucks for a longboard, my gut feeling is that its gonna suck due to past experience with Seismics.

Have u gone fast on the white board?
From what i can see, your setup has very low deck height, lacks leverage, which makes it lacks manueverablity, it helps to keep wobs away, but most prefer a setup that turns.

that seems like the holy grail for a longboard truck,
loose and turny for low speed carving and able to high speed bomb all in one truck.

Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:59 am
by Ben
sk8norcal wrote:35 and up is all fast to me.

I like to see some videos of mtboarders going fast,
and without carving side to side, straight lining it.



as fast as i dare go on dirt with no brakes (thus far)

crudely measured as going 37kph

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/56383827" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/56383827">fast run 37kph</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/smeeb2000">Ben Frankel</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 10:11 am
by Jimmy Chaos
No I haven't gone fast on the white board, its not put together for that purpose. It's slung really low and has an awesome feel to it, I like it and what BG says, "Ride what you like"

I didn't know there were stipulations on going fast, like your not allowed to move side to side or adjust your trucks. That seems kind of silly.

In my opinion if a truck comes with an adjustment to make it so stiff you can barely turn it and you could bomb a hill going 50/60 mph. That truck is made to go fast.

Even if I knew of a video of someone going 60, what good would that do. from different angles a 20mph run look like 35, and a 60 mph run could look like 40.

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:12 pm
by BgSurfer
DrSkaCtopus wrote:
Edit: And remember, the springs don't act as a suspension system, only a means of resistance for turning. Prevents the turning from being sloppy and loose as well as providing a nice and snappy return to center.


At 45 degrees, the kingpin allows max turn and also has a vertical motion vector (suspension effect?). Kingpin at 90 degrees to deck/ground has no vertical motion vector, only in motion the horizontal plane. Kingpin parallel (0 degrees) to the deck/ground, has only 100% vertical motion on one side or the other with no turning (suspension effect?).

Regarding springs and loose or tight, I believe skateboard bushings come in different duros to adjust "loose" or "tight" to alter responsiveness. I could be wrong.

Jimmy's board is essentially a drop-deck longboard with adjustable tension trucks. Seems like a viable option to me.

I plan to finish something similar this month for my son using an old MBS Rennegade deck, ATS trucks and some Gumball or Alligator skate wheels. Blocking the trucks with flat wood risers (varying thickness) can be used to adjust axle position relative to the bottom of the deck.

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:24 pm
by BgSurfer
BgSurfer wrote:At 45 degrees, the kingpin allows max turn and also has a vertical motion vector (suspension effect?). Kingpin at 90 degrees to deck/ground has no vertical motion vector, only in motion the horizontal plane. Kingpin parallel (0 degrees) to the deck/ground, has only 100% vertical motion on one side or the other with no turning (suspension effect?).

Regarding springs and loose or tight, [SIZE="3"] I believe skateboard bushings come in different duros to adjust "loose" or "tight" to alter responsiveness. I could be wrong.[/SIZE]

Jimmy's board is essentially a drop-deck longboard with adjustable tension trucks. Seems like a viable option to me.

I plan to finish something similar this month for my son using an old MBS Rennegade deck, ATS trucks and some Gumball or Alligator skate wheels. Blocking the trucks with flat wood risers (varying thickness) can be used to adjust axle position relative to the bottom of the deck.


[SIZE="3"]http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/Tech_Articles/truck-bushing-durometer-reference-list[/SIZE]

~~~~~

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:30 pm
by sir seymour
changing bushing duro is a very handy thing indeed, giving you a stiffer ride without cranking down and limiting the range of turn available. Truck angle is also very important. a lower angle truck is more stable to ride becasue any wobbles or oscilations you encounter result in less actual turn and less chance of throwing you off. Running a lower angle truck in the back makes the board turn from the front and helps eliminate speed wobble by stopping the trucks from oscillating at the same rate.

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:00 pm
by OldDirtyBastard
[color="Sienna"]I bet if you fabricated a 15 - 35 degree wedge with some holes through it and maybe some slightly longer bolts you could mount your matrix trucks to your longboard I don't know how she would ride tho be high for a longboard maybe flip your trucks
Jimmy Chaos that board is sexi I'm thinking some soft music and a candlelight dinner maybe she will let me take her for a ride keep inventing cool shit bro![/color]