US Liability laws and other mumbojumbo

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bigbrudda84
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Post by bigbrudda84 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:36 am

The US government seizes all profits gained from the illegal sales of drugs.

In this case, McDonalds profits were based on those from illegal coffee sales. An award of one day's profit from illegal coffee sales seems more than reasonable.

Without this award, McDonalds would have maintained its defiance of the law because it was quite profitable to do so. With potential seizure of all profits from coffee sales, McDonalds would never have embarked on such a market campaign.

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bigbrudda84
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Post by bigbrudda84 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:47 am

The U.S. government seizes all profits gained from the illegal sales of drugs.

In this case, McDonalds profits were based on those from illegal coffee sales. An award of one day's profit from illegal coffee sales seems more than reasonable.

Without this award, McDonalds would have maintained its defiance of the law because it was quite profitable to do so. With potential seizure of all profits from coffee sales, McDonalds never would have embarked on such a market campaign. Injuries could have have been avoided.

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Post by BgSurfer » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:57 am

I went on-line and re-read the McDonalds case. I saw nothing about fines -- but we all know the internet is the source for accurate facts.

McDonalds maintained its coffee temperatures between 180-190 F.

Nonetheless, all accounts agree that McDonalds was fully aware that coffee, or any food, at 180 F can and will cause 3rd degree burns if placed in contact with skin -- that is, it is unfit for human consumption. There was concensus that the 79 year-old woman suffered 3rd degree burns on her thighs and groin.

The jury awarded the woman 2-days profit ($2.7 million in punitive damages) from McDonalds' hot coffee sales. The jury awarded this amount because it was clear to them that after 700 such court cases, McDonalds had no intention of changing its coffee temperature policy. The court refused to re-visit the case, stating McDonalds attitude was "callous." Also, McDonalds could not be jailed because it is a corporation.

With inadequate penalties and without public protection from hazardous practices, the only recourse to halt such callous actions is large settlements.
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Felix_the_Gat
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Post by Felix_the_Gat » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:21 pm

BgSurfer wrote: McDonalds maintained its coffee temperatures between 180-190 F.

Is that a legal temperature?

BgSurfer wrote:the only recourse to halt such callous actions is large settlements.

I prefer not to put myself into situations that might harm me. That includes putting hot coffee between my legs in a car.

The recourse should be that you don't buy products that you don't like. If enough people don't buy a product then a company won't sell that product. 700 people sued for damages out of how many millions of people who drank the coffee with no ill effect or handled the ill effect by not buying coffee?

I don't buy coffe from McDonalds or Bruger's bagel store. I got scalded one time and told them I won't buy coffee anymore unles they reduced the temperature. They didn't so I don't.

McDonalds is a corporation made up of people. If people break the law they can be sent to jail.

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Post by TylerStartin » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:50 pm

BgSurfer wrote:The McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit may have been a few years before your time.

At the time, McDonalds was advertising that they had the "Hottest Coffee in Town." It wasn't false advertising. They knew theirs was the "hottest."

In general, I am in agreement. Lawsuits are too common. However, my son had 4 ankle surgeries. After the first one was a screw up, it took 3 more to repair the first screw up. We had to go to a new high-dollar specialist in another state and not all of the repairs were covered by medical insurance. We did not sue, and the insurance company did not flinch about paying the original Doctor's fee -- driving insurance rates up for everybody because they paid out rather than sue. My son was in excruciating pain for 2-3 years (24-7) and developed a problem with pain pills as a result. Lots of flaws throughout the system.

If I didn't have a decent job and what is considered good medical insurance in the US, my son would have been a cripple for life. :mad:
BTW I paid out of my own pocket to the tune of the cost of a new car for this ankle problem, in addition to my insurance policy. Rip-off?

EDIT: Turns out I had more to say than I thought.


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I think that suing for someone else's retardedness, like a doctor screwing up in surgery or something is fairly well justified. However I don't think the stupid, 'I was dumb at your establishment and now I'm going to say that my stupidity is your fault' thing is just unjustified, unfair, and unintelligent.
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Post by Felix_the_Gat » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:53 am

To sum up. American trail lawyers, and a lot of citizens, agree that US citizens do not have the ability to guard themselves against harm and that "corporations" are in business to do them harm.

That is why the US can't have mountainboard centers and is the root of many other restrictions to our freedom and liberties.

Let's apply the McDonalds case to a US mountainboard park. The park is set up to provide a safe venture for riders based on their ability. Safety lesson are offered, first aid is provided and the center is insured.

Several trail with features and varying terrain are offered. Each trail is maintained to allow riders with the appropriate skill level to ride. Each trail is marked to designate the difficultly of the trail and the skill levl required to negotiate the features. That standard "mountainboarding is dangerous" disclaimer and safety equipment requirements appear everywhere including the wavier of claim each rider must sign.

An eldery person has been coming to the center with his kids for years. This day he decides he is going to join in the fun and ride. He pads up, takes off down a steep run, can't control his speed, hits a tree, breaks a leg and sues the center.

His claim is, despite his knowledge of the dangers and experience with the policies of the center, that the center is at fault because their trails were unfit for human occupantion. Even though, if fact, he was unfit to occupy the trail.

The trail lawyer takes his case, sues the center and is awarded an amount that causes the center's insurance rates to skyrocket and driving them out of business.

Can't happen you say? Look at the history of 70's and 80's era private skateparks in this country and you'll see why they closed.

I guess that is the way the people who live through exploitation want this country to be because that is sure the way it is. Everyone how has fallen from a mountainboard needs to sue the MBS corporation. They make mountainboards just to harm their customers.

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bigbrudda84
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Post by bigbrudda84 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:05 am

Your example and the McDonalds' case are apples and oranges.

The public was unaware of how dangerous the coffee temperatures were. McDonalds settled many cases, for a pittance relative to one day of profit, to keep it out of the public eye. McDonalds willfully placed people in danger.

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Post by Felix_the_Gat » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:10 am

(reposted with corrections and additions)

To sum up. American trial lawyers, and a lot of citizens, agree that US citizens do not have the ability to guard themselves against harm and that "corporations" are in business to do them harm.

That is why the US can't have mountainboard centers and is the root of many other restrictions to our freedom and liberties.

Let's apply the McDonalds case to a US mountainboard park. The park is set up to provide a safe venue for riders based on their ability. Safety lesson are offered, first aid is provided and the center is insured.

Several trails with features and varying terrain are offered (McDonalds offers cold drinks and coffee). Each trail is maintained to allow riders with the appropriate skill level to ride (McDonolds was not sued becuase their cooffe machine was defective and not maintained to prevent hot coffee). Each trail is marked to designate the difficultly of the trail and the skill level required to negotiate the features. The standard "mountainboarding is dangerous" disclaimer and safety equipment requirements appear everywhere including the wavier of claim each rider must sign (McDonalds has printing on the cups warning that it was hot).

An eldery person has been coming to the center with his kids for years. This day he decides he is going to join in the fun and ride. He pads up, takes off down a steep run, can't control his speed, speed wobbles, crashes, breaks a leg and sues the center.

His claim is, despite his knowledge of the dangers and experience with the policies of the center, that the center is at fault because their trails were unfit for human occupation. Even though, if fact, he was unfit to occupy the trail.

The trial lawyer takes his case, sues the center and is awarded an amount that causes the center's insurance rates to skyrocket and drives them out of business.

Can't happen you say? Look at the history of 70's and 80's era private skateparks in this country and you'll see why they closed. I guess that is the way the people who live through exploitation want this country to be because that is sure the way it is.

Everyone who has fallen from a mountainboard needs to sue the MBS corporation. They make mountainboards just to harm their customers, they are a big corporation that makes a lot of money and hey, MBS is a corporation, it's not like they are people.

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Post by Felix_the_Gat » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:18 am

bigbrudda84 wrote: The public was unaware of how dangerous the coffee temperatures were. McDonalds settled many cases, for a pittance relative to one day of profit, to keep it out of the public eye. McDonalds willfully placed people in danger.

Not true. It was stated in the court records that McDonalds had warnings printed on their coffee cups. The woman's lawyer claimed the warnings weren't big enough. The coffee the woman bought was not the first cup of hot coffee she bought from McDonalds.

Just a suit is brought in court doesn't mean that it is justified. McDonalds and many corporations settle cases out of court because it is cheaper. The realative cost of a settlement to the profits of McDonalds is irrelevant.

Mountainboard manufactures put people in danger every day. MBS knows that peopel get hurt on their boards. They even make rachet bindings that break. They know that someone will get hurt when a rachet breaks because they sell replacement parts. Should they be sued and pay damages when someone gets hurt due to a busted bracket?

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bigbrudda84
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Post by bigbrudda84 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:36 am

Could cause burns?

Did the warning state that coffee temperature was between 180-190, temperatures that would cause third degree burns if it came into contact with skin? Deceptive to maintain a highly profitable market campaign and avoid lawsuits for wanton endangerment?

McDonalds got off easy for $2.7 million.

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Post by Brennig » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:52 am

The fact that McDonalds could just pay the fine is my point exactly, so long as you have money you are above the law, it's ridiculous. I don't see why money should be invovled in the law, it'sm the same with bailing out of jail. So rich people can do what they want as they can just bail themselves out. Mixing money and the law is a very dangerous thing.
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Post by Felix_the_Gat » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:57 am

bigbrudda84 wrote:Could cause burns?

Yes, anyone who has every had coffee knows that you boil the water to make the coffee and that boiled water can scald.

McDonalds made hot coffee to go so it would be hot when the person drank it later, preferably when they were not driving. Because they sell coffee to go, should Mcdonalds be sued for evey doofus that bumps my car when they are sipping a coffee instead of looking where they are going?

Should the burn warning also have stated not to hold the coffee between your knees, in a car, when you are real old?

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bigbrudda84
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Post by bigbrudda84 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:01 am

Most food services routinely maintain coffee temperature below 150 for safety.

The expert testified coffee at 155 would have cooled enough in the few seconds of spillage to not cause severe burns.

McDonalds safety person testified he knew the dangers of 180-190 and indicated there was no plan to change policy.

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Post by Felix_the_Gat » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:10 am

Brennig wrote:The fact that McDonalds could just pay the fine is my point exactly, so long as you have money you are above the law, it's ridiculous.

McDonalds was not above the law. They went through the legal process every time and function as a legal corporation to this day serving millions.

And besides, it isn't MCDonalds that pays the settlement, it is their customers who pay. It's all those poor and fat people who live in food islands.

You think the boards and shareholders of McDonalds are just going to reduce their profit to settle a case. No way, just raise the price on a fish sandwich. I don't shop there because it isn't worth the money to me.

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Post by Felix_the_Gat » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:16 am

bigbrudda84 wrote:The expert testified coffee at 155 would have cooled enough in the few seconds of spillage to not cause severe burns.

McDonalds dosen't sell their to go coffee to be consumed in a few seconds. She misused the product. Should a safety label also say, "Don't look into the sip tab to see if you got enough cream or the car could move, slosh your HOT coffee, and burn your eye, eye lid and adjcent tissue"?

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Post by Brennig » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:23 am

Felix_the_Gat wrote:McDonalds was not above the law. They went through the legal process every time and function as a legal corporation to this day serving millions.

And besides, it isn't MCDonalds that pays the settlement, it is their customers who pay. It's all those poor and fat people who live in food islands.

You think the boards and shareholders of McDonalds are just going to reduce their profit to settle a case. No way, just raise the price on a fish sandwich. I don't shop there because it isn't worth the money to me.


Exactly they pay up, there is no worse discrimination. My local caffe couldn't so it because they don't own millions, McDonalds did because they could. They bypass justice by flashing the cheque book, if the owner was to serve a jail sentence for it they wouldn't do it. I don't see how money should be allowed to come up in the law, the real discrimination comes from the size of your wallet not the colour of your skin or the lack of a penis.
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bigbrudda84
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Post by bigbrudda84 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:39 am

The size of your wallet determines the power of your attorney and the ability to sidestep the law. Discrimination?

The alternative is to spend millions of tax dollars to pass legislation to outlaw the sales and distribution of dangerously hot liquids in unsafe containers.

Take this one step further, what is the dollar value of human life? Union Carbide, Bohpal.

For all of their shortcomings, FDA and OSHA have saved millions of lives and protected millions more from injury.

McDonalds was aware of the serious dangers to the public and disregarded human safety for profit.

If you receive remuneration for a product or service, you are liable. That's the law.

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Felix_the_Gat
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Post by Felix_the_Gat » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:07 am

The US laws that regulate personal injury actions are made by trial lawyers. Trial lawyers are the biggest contributors to the democrat party corporation and make up a large majority of the democrat party corporation aministration and political candidates.

How does a company profit from selling a product that is designed to harm their customer? If that works, I'll start selling breakfast cerial made out of crushed glass.

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Post by McCarver » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:17 am

US laws suck. To the pub with ye.
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Post by LivEviL » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:52 am

What temp is mcdonalds ice coffee? id hate to spill it and freeze my balls off:p
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